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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Feb 23, 2009 6:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Hartford '77!!

Last show of the incredible month to be released in April.

http://www.dead.net/features/release-info/terrapin-hartford-may-28-1977

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1977-05-28.mtx.chappell.sb30b.97017.flac16


This post was modified by elbow1126 on 2009-02-24 02:56:37

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Feb 24, 2009 9:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

It was all downhill after 1968!

Anyway.... Obviously nothing beats pre-75 for me.....but I see the point of those who hear a falling-off in '77. That year has tighter, more energetic whole shows than '76....but '76 has just about the last of the exquisite psychedelic jamming, which distinguishes a lot of shows from that year, and is barely heard in '77. To my ears, there seems to be a shift from adventurous band jams more to "Jerry solos" - Playing in the Band starts to become aimless wandering - and the Other One starts its remorseless decline. But folks who prefer hot Jerry solos in the confines of song chords, rather than extended psychedelic jazziness, have no problem with '77.
I do enjoy the band up to the mid-80s, while preferring some years to others. For me, '81 is the best year of that decade but I can also put on many shows from '82-84 without too many complaints. '85 is where I really start to lose interest. (I recognize the jamming revival starting in '89, but their sound then just doesn't tickle me....anyway that's a different issue.)

There was a discussion here a while back about whether the band was more "consistent" in '72 or '77.... Not to revive it, but I think folks who protest about repetitive setlists (like we find in those 2 years) have a slim argument - maybe they're spoiled by the '80s when the Dead could go 2-3 night without repeats? I always keep in mind early '69 - a golden period, but the most limited setlists the band ever had! (Contrast the '90s, when they had the most songs.)
Garcia himself said sometime in the '80s that the band had become more consistent, whereas their shows had used to be more hit & miss.... I think he was nuts. But he was always over-optimistic.....

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Poster: BongWzrd Date: Feb 24, 2009 11:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

This is the only band ever that would cause this much debate over a show played 30 something years ago.....

Some thoughts on all of this.....

Rhino Records does not want to put out releases for the handful of HARDCORE fans that are left....They want a release that will appeal to the masses and get new fans onboard to buy stuff we already have..They are banking on this new tour to spark interest in the band again..But they want "New Money".....

Until the entire vault is released, no one will be happy...
Simple Soulution= Put up every soundboard in the vault, even shows that have tech issues, charge a fee to DL, per song or per show......Then everyone is happy, those who want complete shows and those who want certain songs or sets...Plus Rhino makes $$$$$$.....

I love 77' and enjoy listening to that entire year, But this show is pretty plain, Ranked 37th by DeadBase for 77'..Good 2nd set though....

I try not to compare era's or years, each one has something to offer (Same as baseball)

1965-70 Primal Dead
1971-1972 Beginings of Dead Jazz
1973-1974 True Grateful Dead
1975 Hiatus Time (BLUES FOR ALLAH ROCKS!!!)
1976 Mellow Dead
1977 As close to a "Complete Band" as it got
1978 Smack-Smack-Smack (After 02-05-78 it was never the same)
1979-81 Dead Reborn (Jerry still can catch fire)
1982-85 Jerry's Decline
1986-88 Rough and Rugged Dead (Still a fine band, Brent starting to rip)
1989-90 Brent's final voyage
1990-91 BRUCE!!!!!!
1992-95 End of Days (Still some nice spots)

Point being is we can all agree, that if we step away and compare the Dead at anypoint to a band other than itself, it's all really good....

Too bad Rhino owns all this music....They have no idea how to handle it....

Put David Lemiuex, Charlie Miller and David Gans in charge, then you would see some releases!!!!

All this makes me really miss Dick Latvala!!!!!!!!!!
RIP





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Poster: Tidewater four ten O nine Date: Feb 24, 2009 12:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

My two pence worth:-

Hi Styro, don't agree with all your views (e.g. I LOVE those Chuck Berry covers) but I agree with you here. IMHO (and they're all just subjective opinions) this, Cornell and other '77 & later can't hold a candle to 'end of tour (May, Lyceum) 1972 but if that's your thing, so be it. I'll buy it anyway 'cos I'm a fan (AKA mug) but I'd be a lot more enthusiastic if (by magic) this release was a full (3-4 CD) soundboard of one of those currently very dodgy audience Wembley, Lyceum (or even Bickershaw) shows .........

Anyway, keep on truckin' / smiling.

Tidewater

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Poster: rastamon Date: Feb 24, 2009 3:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

and a lovely thread it be! i feeeel the luv, the hostility...the happyhappyjoy! Koch 'n Cliff, more kindred then realized...but WHY no f'n Darkstars in 77??? the winner is....cliffman Kochucker

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Feb 24, 2009 3:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

rasta, i was counting on you for the hugs and emoticons.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Feb 24, 2009 4:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

:) can't beat a 72 Darkstar though :)

to beat a Cornell horse though, I JUST finished obtaining 5/8/77 Matrix (100% yaaaaaaa!) burned CD 3 first and touched the face of God-Morning Dew- that was what made that show GRATE. The F'n MONSTER!!!!

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Feb 24, 2009 3:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Bah!

I demand a recount! We wuz robbed!

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Feb 24, 2009 7:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Ta! I do like "Run Rudolph Run" but that hardly counts....and speaking of Pig, check out his piano (!) playing on "Tastebud" here:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd70-workingmans-outtakes.sbd.7319.sbeok.shnf

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Feb 24, 2009 5:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

pretty good summation!

For me '77 was simply the most consistently excellent run of shows, beginning to end of one year. Band members are still young, but more mature in their playing and approach to the music; they're energized after a year of getting their "sea legs" back from hiatus in '76 and are now playing with greater verve and confidence...the shows both flow smoothly and rock hard. Jerry's voice has yet to hit its decline.

Other pluses: New intros of songs from TERRAPIN that became classics; more jammed-out versions of songs they'd been playing for years and now perfected with those extended jams (i.e. HALF STEP, JACK STRAW, BERTHA, TMNS, ROW JIMMY, LOSER, BLACK PETER, DEW, SUGAR MAG, and more); a more controlled Donna than in the early 70's; the advent of the SCARLET>FIRE combo, along with some of the best ever performed.

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Poster: Old_NJ_Head_Zimmer Date: Feb 24, 2009 6:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Release is a Tour Ad

According to the press release on Dead.net:

"So, why put this out now? Why the hell not? And what’s with all the questions? Just enjoy it. OK, aside from it being a classic show worthy of release, we thought it might be fun to revisit a concert played in one of the venues The Dead are hitting this spring on their tour—that would be the Hartford Civic (now the XL Center) on 4/26/09… why, that’s the 31-year, 11-month, 2-day anniversary show of this epic ’77 show!"

So is this date picked for a release just because it's a venue on the "Nostalga Band's" newest tour? That would be sad.

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Poster: Dhamma1 Date: Feb 24, 2009 6:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Although I don't disgree with what's been said above, I suspect that the folks at Rhino are not aiming these releases at us.

We're marginal in their eyes, since we probably already have nice copies of the show. They're more likely intending to reach new listeners for whom "May '77" evokes no particular reaction at all (much less "Winterland February '74"). There may be 400 of us over here carping about the choice, but there are probably 40,000 people willing to lay down $17 and find out for the first time why May of 1977 is a high point.

So I wish Rhino all the best with it, though personally I'm more likely to fill a Dicks Picks gap in my collection than to pre-order this particular show.

BTW, if anybody knows the press runs on these releases, I'd love to hear. How large is the current market, anyway?

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Feb 24, 2009 7:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

I used to believe this about growing the audience and argued the same point about the Road Trips release. However many of these releases have only been available by ordering through dead.net and I haven't figured out how that would be the best way to get an introductory release out.

I look at like this. Of course it's a nostalgia tour!!! How could it be anything but that! However I would rather pay $18 (plus tax and shipping) for 3 CDs of nostalgia from one of the many peaks in the Grateful Dead Mountain Range vs. pay $100 (plus parking and other fees) to be nostalgic with the current line up. Seriously, 18 bucks for 3CDs that are in HDCD? Where else do you get this kind of deal?

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Hard for me to stomach most of the nonsense I've seen in this thread.

You people actually have a problem with a full show from May of 1977, in pristine sound?

Jesus H. on a hockey stick.

Go ahead and natter on about your Spinal Tap-like performances of a 45 minute Dark Star from some show in 1973 and yet another droning Weather Report Suite>Let it Grow from 1974, or a piss-ant 1980's show in which Jerry's voice sounds like a frog being choked to death by a cat that's being simultaneously ripped to shreds in a blender, or, hey, even better--some really "must-have" show from the '90's in which Vince channels his inner Roger Daltry to embarrass every rock and roll fan who ever lived trying to sing Baba O'Reilly and Jerry slogs his ass through another Black Muddy Isthmus and Bobby thrills the gals with a riveting synth-pop rendition of Picasso Moon.

If you can't appreciate what that band did in 1977, at the absolute height of their powers, and are going to grouse about a perfect release of a complete show with awesome sound, you don't even deserve to call yourselves Dead Heads.

Bunch of witless ingrates.

Oh, and Happy Fucking Mardi Gras.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Feb 24, 2009 9:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Your absolutely right Grendel, exactly what we need is a seventh official release (eight counting Download series #1) from 1977!

I'm sorry, I just couldnt hide how happy I am to get an official release of such a well circulated Betty Cantor sourced show...

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Feb 24, 2009 9:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

I have to agree with Cliff on this one - if they want to release something, why not dig a little deeper? I've listend to the first set from this show today and while it's good, I'm not going to reach for this one very often. Besides, if you love 77, don't you have already have this? It's not like May '77 is an overlooked period of time.

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Poster: SkyDawg Date: Feb 24, 2009 10:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

I'm still waiting for some 1969 and 1970 full show releases, a woefully neglected period official release-wise. As for "great months", and May '77 is undeniably one, what about April 69, April and May 1970, July 1970, or maybe a complete Orpheum show from July '76? I am still hoping for a 1970 Fillmore West release too. I have enough 1977. The $18 price for this '77 release IS nice though. I might buy this one.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Feb 24, 2009 2:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Lookit--If they produced cleaned-up, enhanced, perfect-sounding boards of shows in 1977, I'd by nearly every damn one. It's my understanding that the Hartford show will be even better to listen to than the circulating Betty Board. Hell, I'll pay the $17 just for the cover art and to acknowledge what they did in that year, especially that month.

Bottom line--it's a great fucking show. I've NEVER been disappointed with a single 1977 release, whether from Dicks Picks or DL series or the Rhino stuff. And I'm very glad this is the full show they're releasing. My only gripe would be there are no bonus trax w/the purchase...but you'll never hear me gripe about an offical release from the band's best year.

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Poster: Death&Mercy Date: Feb 24, 2009 4:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Hi grendel,

Quickly - 1st set solid from start to finish, but the 2nd set is not a strong one imo (for the year). S&D into an average Jed to start is disappointing, and the Playin and NFA are both below average for the year. The Estimated is fun with a few mini-jams, the Terrapin is special, as all May versions are, and the NFA segue into Wharf Rat is cool, but I'm left looking for more here.

I'm a big fan of the Mosque show, and I like 5/26 as well. I would have preferred a Road Trips.

PS - don't forget to check out the 4/23 matrix.

This post was modified by Death&Mercy on 2009-02-25 00:07:54

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

lmao!!!!

great post - funniest of the day thus far (and i did need that one)

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Thanks, Dire...had a feeling you'd appreciate that.

and if anyone gets in my face about it, "I shall taunt them a second time."

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Feb 24, 2009 9:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

I like the 76 + min "Playin' remix" best, myself... ;)

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Feb 24, 2009 9:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Damn.

Outstanding Spinal Tap reference. Who can honestly say that after listening to a 45 minute Playin' that their brain isn't saying "OK, I get it, time to move on". Jazz Odyssey indeed.

Most every year had it highlights and lowlights, with folks seeing more here and there depending on personal preference. Personally, I think the whole band sucked start to finish and I'm only here to laugh at you gullible baffoons.

This post was modified by SomeDarkHollow on 2009-02-24 17:06:09

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Poster: Lou Davenport Date: Feb 24, 2009 5:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Me.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Feb 24, 2009 6:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Excellent point. If these releases do well with the wider commercial audience Rhino is targeting, we will probably see more releases that perhaps will satisfy the picky bastards inhabiting this little corner of the world (oh, that would be us, by the way). So let's hope this release sells like a mo'fo'.

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Poster: Dhamma1 Date: Feb 24, 2009 7:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

Of course, after April 7 I expect they will request that the free Betty Board / matrix here be taken down, since the show will be commercially available then. So we could pay a price for every show that goes public commercially

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Feb 23, 2009 10:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77!!

What a shame Larry...so much incredible music in that vault and they choose a cookie-cutter '77 show...(yawn)...as if they havnt released enough from this over-rated and rather boring year...you heard one show from spring '77, you heard 'em all..(yawn)...wake me up when the Winterland Feb '74 boxed set is released...Peace!

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Feb 24, 2009 2:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

They seemed to be in a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation. They get ripped for Road Trips and now they release a full show from arguably their best month and they get ripped. Correct me if I am wrong but I don't think they have ever actually released a full show from this May '77. I don't believe DP3 was complete nor were either of the two shows on DP29. It would not be my first choice for a show release however they could have done much worse.

You know that I would much rather have had a release from that Winterland Feb. '74 run. It does not get any better than the last night of this three night run imo.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd74-02-24.sbd.windsor.199.sbefail.shnf

One U.S. Blues [5:28] ; Mexicali Blues [3:24] ; Brown Eyed Women [4:51] ; Beat It On Down The Line [3:34] ; Candyman [7:00] ; Jack Straw [4:38] ; China Cat Sunflower [5:55] > I Know You Rider [9:30] ; El Paso [4:29] ; Loser [6:22] ; Playing In The Band [18:16]

Two Cumberland Blues [6:09] ; It Must Have Been The Roses [5:18] ; Big River [4:54] ; Bertha [6:17] ; Weather Report Suite Prelude [1:27] > Weather Report Suite Part 1 [5:02] > Let It Grow [9:08] > Row Jimmy [7:31] ; Ship Of Fools [5:47] ; The Promised Land [3:21] ; Dark Star [28:57] > Morning Dew [13:35] ; Sugar Magnolia [9:01] > Not Fade Away [4:49] > Goin' Down The Road Feeling Bad [7:20] > Not Fade Away [3:48]

Encore It's All Over Now, Baby Blue [6:15]

Even if you're not a fan of '74, you really should at least give the China>Rider from this show a listen.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Feb 24, 2009 4:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

Colossal show that more than resembles a 1990 Montrose!

Taste at this weeks TS...

http://www.dead.net/features/february-23-march-1-2009

"This three night run of shows to start 1974 is excellent throughout, almost on the level of the three nights at Winterland in November, 1973. Here's to hoping February 1974 gets the same treatment as November 1973 someday..."
David Lemieux

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Feb 24, 2009 7:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

Love that 2-24 show... :)

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Poster: kochman Date: Feb 24, 2009 7:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

The argument that May 77 is their best month is pretty much crushed at the lack of variation in setlists. Sure, it is a great month, but not the ultimate.

The other official releases are missing like one or two tracks, right? I think we can overlook those tracks when referring to the releases. Techinically, yes, they are not complete show (and the removal of those tracks is another example of how bad GDP is at business).

I think, and I may be mistaken here, that Road Trips is a bad concept for the consumate head because of its incomplete nature.
This release is not going to make many happy, because there is so much stuff out there that hasn't been released. I could pick a number of shows from a number of years that has been poorly represented as far as official releases are concerned.

Then there is the fact that most any release is bound to be criticize because that is how we are as fans.

2/9/73 or 8/1/73 would have been a nice one. Or something from the 80s which is very poorly represented... like an 84 for example.

How about an uncirculating show?

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:02am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

So you have "crushed" my argument but you offer no better months. Seriously name me a better single month of shows? It's easy to simply discount someone else's argument but not as easy to actually make and defend one of your own. Here let me help you. May of '81 is pretty good as is Nov. '73 and what we have of Jan. '68. Of course April and May of '72 but you may have some setlist issues there as well. You may argue any of these are as good or better than May '77 and I would not disagree. That's why i said it's arguably their best month, not definitively. I can name some great weeks in '82 and '84 although a great month might be a stretch.

This is not to say that I think the band peaked in May '77, as I stated somewhere in this thread, i believe they had a mountain range of peaks over the 30 years.

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Poster: kochman Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

Better months, since you asked, are below. This is of course one man's opinion, but, I don't really see the relevance of asking what a better month is, as if I have to prove my choices are better. May 77 is probably the most overrated month in their careers.
2/68,10/68,9/72 (though also suffers from setlist complacency), 2/73, 11/73, 6/74, 11/79, 5/81, 10/81, 10/83, 11/85, 10/89, 3/90, 7/90, 6/91
As you can see, I don't hold May 77 in nearly as high a position as you do. I realize this is personal preference, but the point remains, we can easily un-argue May 77 from "best month ever".

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

Just listing months is not an argument. Tell me why you think they are better. For example, I would love to know why you think Feb '68 is better. I love the shows (or bits of shows) I have heard from that month but they only did 8 shows (according to setlists) and music is available from only 5. Not much of a sample to compare to some of these others. So what in that 5 shows rocks your world?

Of course it's all opinion but you will never convince people that your opinion is relevant if all you do is dismiss theirs and offer nothing in return or worse call them close-minded yet offer nothing to open their minds.

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Poster: kochman Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

Yeah, I just don't really care enough to elaborate here. People like what they like, and a paragraph or two from me isn't going to change their habits. There is no convincing someone to like what I like via posting threads.
I do not feel the need to follow some kind of arbitrary rules or standards to validate my posts.

I understand what you are saying, but my goal is different.

My point was, again, to just show that May 77 is really not as good as some people make it out to be. That it is, in fact, the most overrated month. My list was merely to show possible contenders as being so numerous. If May 77 is the best to you, fine, but when you offer up that is argueably the best month of 30 years, expect to take a little criticism.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Feb 24, 2009 9:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

Larry, this is from a dude who doesnt yet have a handle on the bands personel changes over the years and has ten 90's shows in his "official" top 50 of all time...

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Poster: kochman Date: Feb 24, 2009 9:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

Cliff, once again you prove to be the ultimate asshole on the board. As if there was ever any doubt.
Yes, I made a mistake on a post once regarding a keyboardist. Sorry. I guess you were too dumb to realize that I already apologized for a typo. Get over it jerk. You keep living on this one mistake. If that's the best you got, you ain't got much. Oh crap, I just made another mistake, Cliff, "ain't" isn't a word. Run, tell the President.
And, for the record, Cliff, that Top 50 was not MY creation alone. That was voted on by something like 50 people... Sorry to disappoint you.

This post was modified by kochman on 2009-02-24 17:40:14

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Feb 24, 2009 10:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

Koch, how delightful that you finally got around to checking out 2/18/71.

I've got to say Im really enlightened by your official top fifty list! Pretty gutsy move to include all those 90's shows and real treasures like 3/27/88 and 6/30/85 but not shows like 11/8/69, 12/30/69, 2/13-14/70, 9/19-20/70, 6/24/70, 11/8/70, 4/28/71, 9/27/72 etc, etc...

Keep up the good work Koch!

By the way, I enjoy it more when you diss the LMA forum at the Lost Assholes Pub, than when you directly attack people here...

This post was modified by Cliff Hucker on 2009-02-24 18:01:23

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Poster: kochman Date: Feb 24, 2009 11:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

Well, Cliff does not approve of the Top 50 list compiled from many people's choices. Better take it down.
For someone who hates www.lostsailorpub.forumup.it so much, you sure do spend a lot of time reading our threads.

Anyhow, to go back to what we were saying before cliffsucker jumped in...

Elbow, I agree with you 100% that there were a series of peaks in the mountain range. I don't have one that surpasses the others clearly.

This post was modified by kochman on 2009-02-24 19:25:43

This post was modified by kochman on 2009-02-24 19:26:42

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Feb 24, 2009 9:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77 or TDIH '74?

I'm sorry but Dire and I have tried again and again to share ownership of the ultimate asshole award and quite honestly Cliff doesn't hold a candle to either one of us. On the other hand, a new candidate has emerged...

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Feb 24, 2009 12:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

I gotta say I agree with Cliff on this. To me, 1977 is the beginning of the end...disco Mexicali Blues/Eyes/Everything Else anyone? I just think the drummers stopped caring and started plodding...the vocals start getting bad, Keith is asleep half the time (although that is worse in '78). Other than 5/13 (which won't be released due to beer spillage in the board near the end), I only like bits and pieces of '77 shows. I guess Rhino (?) is going with what they think is a sure-fire seller...

This post was modified by Styrofoam Cueball on 2009-02-24 08:06:50

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Feb 24, 2009 6:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

Right on Styro!

Though I would say it was over before it ever re-started. The band never recaptured the jazzy magic of 1975, and once the heroin kicked in hard, it was over for good! Jerry's motivation and skills quickly deteriorated with his health and neither Jer or the band were ever the same. They should have packed it up by the end of 1981...

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Poster: snori Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

I'll back you up on that timeline, Cliff. While there are some individual shows that are exceptional, I think the last consistently good tour was Europe '81.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Feb 24, 2009 10:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

They should have packed it up by the end of 1981...

Why? That's one of the things that frustrates me about you and Tell. WTF did you go see live then? I can understand what you guys are saying and your preferences and I don't completely disagree however, there were plenty of good musical moments the band offered through the years. I saw most of my shows 89-91 and while these weren't the bands peak years I saw enough other concerts to know that I was seeing a real band playing real music. I felt a part of magic MANY times. In fact, I've seen bands that were musically more adventurous or at least practiced more ( Phish ) but they never ever transported me.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Feb 24, 2009 11:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

Of course you are right JOTS. It's just my opinion and it's no better than yours, or anyone else's here for that matter.

It's just too much fun pushing Kochman's buttons...

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Feb 24, 2009 12:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

agreed it is fun pushing kochmans buttons.

My only point is regardless of all of our preferences, what other band was doing what they did all those years? With the exception of the last couple of years maybe, who else comes close?

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Feb 24, 2009 1:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

You have to go outside rock into the jazz world to find anyone to compare- folks like Miles or McCoy Tyner that was around before and after the boys. Then again, those are individual musicians working with different folks over time, not groups. As far as "rock" goes, I can't really think of any band (perhaps a few individuals like my beloved RT) with any similar type of longevity and adding new material all along the way. I guess some would say the Allmans, but I haven't listend or cared about them since I was a young dope on punk (although I like both Derek and Warren). Perhaps George Clinton's ever rotating cast of characters comes close, but they still rely on material from the '70s, so again, I'm at a lost to think of another group. Someone help me.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Feb 24, 2009 1:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

yes, I should of mentioned Jazz. That's true. But in terms of pop/rock I'm talking the magic factor. There are hosts of musicians more disciplined thatn the GD were BUT none of them really transported me places.

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Poster: barongsong Date: Feb 25, 2009 5:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

The only other band that really blew my socks of in the mid Eighties was Stevie Ray Vaughn.

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Poster: high flow Date: Feb 24, 2009 11:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

Grateful Dead 1988-1992
Jerry Garcia 1991-1993

Great music was still happening. Sorry you folks missed the fun.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Feb 24, 2009 11:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

gotta agree with you there, mr. flow

GD 1983-1991
JGB 1987-1990

(at least i "think" i had fun.....)

;)

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Poster: kochman Date: Feb 24, 2009 7:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

Never mind, Cliff has proven his closed mindedness too.

81?

Yeah, right guys. Way to call that one. That 10/10/82, 10/20/84, 10/26/89, 7/12/90, 6/14/91, 9/13/93, all really terrible shows. Thanks for leading the way on the realization of that.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

I'm not drinking your Kool Aid Koch! Youre just spouting pablum in order to justify wasting all that time and money attending those horrible 90's shows!

Just the tought of it is making me ill. Getting squashed by some bra-less chick with dreadlocks and hairy underarms, thinking that spraying some patchouli is going to mask the fact that she hadnt bathed since Merriweather and was relieving herself next to soogee's rusted out VW, while Weir is shrieking during another shitty Estimated Prophet with Garcia nodding out...

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Poster: Morning Dewd Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

"Getting squashed by some bra-less chick with dreadlocks and hairy underarms, thinking that spraying some patchouli is going to mask the fact that she hadnt bathed since Merriweather and was relieving herself next to soogee's rusted out VW, while Weir is shrieking during another shitty Estimated Prophet with Garcia nodding out..."

I was at that show! - more than a few times.

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Poster: clashcity Date: Feb 24, 2009 11:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

I'm sure no one will deny (ok a few... calling Will Tell)... that there was some good stuff that came from those times in my book 78 - 91... but you are seriously delusional if you believe for one second any of that stuff, few songs from a show, or bunch of stuff you can compile from a 3 show run holds even a candle to what the band was able to accomplish 68-77-ish... I prefer to call it at 75 and some of 76 with enjoyable stuff in 77.

There are some great renditions of songs and PARTS of shows to be sure where the magic crept out, and made itself known. 10-9-89, 3-29-90 are the only 2 I can think of where they really nailed it down like the old days... and that was only on parts of the show, not the whole thing.

Furthermore, the format of the shows was so formulaic, not to mention most of the venues, that creativity was put on the back burner to putting on a rock n' roll show.

Let's not forget Mickey's return, and subsequent dumbing down of the band as a whole. He's a percussionist for crying out loud... He had no business behind a drum kit.

Don't get me wrong I'd take it over anything else any day of the week. But your argument has so many holes, and is just plain wrong.

Bottom line: I love many pieces of stuff from the 80's and 90's but it is few and far between and I couldn't make 3 whole shows out any of it.

With that said - each to their own, whatever floats your boat, opinions are like assholes...

Have a good day.

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Poster: barongsong Date: Feb 25, 2009 6:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

I think you guys must be forgetting July of 89, JFK, the Alpine run, or Buffalo as an example excellent complete shows that I've heard from just that month alone. While I agree that pre 77 was their creative high point as far as song writing and development. To me though it's like bakeing a beautiful cake and then not eating it because it to beautiful not to got beyond and realize there are just to many Great complete shows and even runs of shows after to my ears for me to dismiss it and believe the only peak in the bands history worth listening to is 73 or 68 or 77 for that matter. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Feb 24, 2009 7:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

That's about as well stated as it gets. Thank you, Clash.

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Poster: kochman Date: Feb 24, 2009 6:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

While I actually find myself agreeing with Cliff, I can say that once again styrofoam is way off mark. I thought I was taking crazy pills until I saw his post reminding me of ridiculous sentiments.
The beginning of the end was 1977? Get out of here. I guess that may be the beginning of where you stop listening, but nowhere near the beginning of the end.

You must be one of those guys who is really a Keith fan, and not a Jerry fan, because Jerry's personal performances were clearly still on the upswing at this point.

I guess that late 79 stuff is just garbage, right?

Anyhow, May 77, sure it is a fine month, but don't we have enough of it? 3 previous releases plus the 5/8/77 which might as well be a release it is so crisp.

As far as their claim that it is a good ad for the tour. Right, except this clearly shows that they are banking on nostalgia. If anyone out there expects this tour to be anything like this release (beyond similar lyrics), I am sorry to let you down, but it won't be at all similar.

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Feb 24, 2009 7:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

Aw, Kokie, just when I thought we were buddies. ;) I'm not a Jerry fan OR a Keith fan, I'm a fan of the overall Band Sound. If Jerry is wailing while BOTH drummers go thud thud, it doesn't thrill me like when the whole band is cooking...but that's just me. YMMV. Actually, I dabble listening to shows from ALL eras (and since I like "Days Between" I have to listen to the 90's shows to hear it), I just think the 'Magnificence' was gone by '78. And give me some of those pills!

The only Dead show I ever saw WAS in late '79 (12/31/79) and it WAS garbage. Just awful.



This post was modified by Styrofoam Cueball on 2009-02-24 15:49:45

This post was modified by Styrofoam Cueball on 2009-02-24 15:56:14

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Poster: kochman Date: Feb 24, 2009 7:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

So, you don't think there are times past 77 when both drummers are on their game? As well as the rest of the band?
Try 1983 for one. Here are some shows to get you started... 6/18/83, 10/17/83 (listen to the FOB for better levels), 10/31/83.
Those 3 right off the bat should be pleasing.

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Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: Feb 24, 2009 9:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

I actually do like that whole Oct '83 run (especially the 15th, set 2), but that wasn't my point. I was saying '77 is WAY overrated and the beginning of their decline, and I still think so. Also, I don't think having a different opinion is 'ridiculous'. I LIKE that everyone here has a different take about what is 'best' about the GD. Since GDP doesn't listen to us as far as their release schedule goes, what difference does it make? I'm stating an opinion, not insisting on Groupthink.

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Poster: kochman Date: Feb 24, 2009 9:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

Some opinions certainly can be considered ridiculous.
I would say an opinion that throws away out of hand anything that Brent touched (glad to see you aren't a part of that nonsense), in 11 years with the band, is certainly ridiculous.

But, that's just my opinion.

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Poster: Pork Soda Date: Feb 24, 2009 10:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

Brent can touch all he wants, just please don't sing.

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Poster: kochman Date: Feb 24, 2009 11:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

[Cue Soggee Johnson]

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Poster: Pork Soda Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

I always thought it was a mistake to bring Mickey back.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Feb 24, 2009 8:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

77 was the beginning of the end. All roads rise to it and all roads fall away from it. No other tour came close in terms of pure musicianship to Spring 77 except perhaps Europe 72.

It was not only the pinnacle of their "ensemble" live playing, but also reflected the end of the best songwriting. Terrapin was the last worthwhile studio effort, anything after pales in comparison. The vast majority of the touring catalog stemmed from songs written prior to Shakedown.

This doesn't mean that the band wasn't capable of stirring it up post 77, just that IMO they never reached that point of perfection again. After 82 it was a coin toss to see whether you'd have a great show or not, after 87 it didn't ache so bad to just stay home and wait for the tapes.

It's funny that those that argue the hardest promoting the latter years more often than not don't have the same reference points to base their arguments. The 80's shows are their frame of reference and what came before really lies outside their ability to pass judgment.

I didn't have the opportunity to see the early incarnation of the band. As such, I do my best to avoid debating the relative merits of 66-71 with the likes of Tell and Cliff. I don't have the experience that would make my opinions stack up. But having attended the great majority of my shows between 72 and 79, I'm pretty comfortable with the opinions I developed about that time frame.

As for the latter years, all you have to do is listen, the evidence speaks for itself. Sometimes great, sometimes not so. Sometimes painful.

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Poster: Edsel Date: Feb 24, 2009 11:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hartford '77??

"After 82 it was a coin toss to see whether you'd have a great show or not."

That's the way it always was.

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